I was the mom in Bradley birth classes furrowing her brow at the stories of nursing toddlers, saying, “When my child is old enough to ask for mama’s milk, that’s when it’s been long enough.”
Eighteen months later, I was the mama with the screaming child: “I want milllllllllllllk!!!!”
He didn’t wean until two-and-a-half.
So when you’re newly pregnant with your first child, and other parents tell you that you don’t really know what it’s like to parent a child until you’re there…they’re really not kidding.
Similarly, you don’t know what the experience of giving birth will be like until you’re right in it, so the best laid birth plans always have to be flexible. The more I know, the more I realize I don’t know, and I’m always willing to change my mind and adjust my goals.
Each of my three births has been different, in goals and outcomes, as I learn more and have experience under my belt.
In general, I request fewer interventions and ask more questions each time.
Antibiotics
I had antibiotics in an IV with my first, and then because I didn’t get the full regimen of both doses, my son had to have a shot of it after birth. I ate my yogurt and took acidophilus capsules to build our healthy gut flora back up, and I was lucky enough to avoid a yeast infection (nursing was hard enough with my jaundiced, sleepy baby and his stressed out mommy).
Now I wonder if his eczema and the fact that autoimmune disease runs in our family is affected by that first experience.
With only 39 minutes in the hospital before birthing my daughter, I didn’t have time for the antibiotics. After a heart to heart with our pediatrician, a sensible woman whom I just love, we decided that the low percentage chance that the virus passed to the baby multiplied by the minuscule chance that it would make her sick wasn’t worth the risk of preemptive antibiotics. We would give antibiotics at the first sign of a fever, but for starters, we declined. All was well.
That was my goal with Jonathan’s birth, which, um, went a little bit faster yet, so antibiotics weren’t even an option. I didn’t want them anyway, and I accepted an extra day in the hospital for him in order to avoid them completely. I’m very happy I did.
Episiotomy and Pitocin
Although my birth plan steered away from episiotomy, I ended up with a cut both times before this one, and also a shot of Pitocin to deliver the placenta.
This time, I was more determined than ever to just breastfeed the placenta out, and I’m happy that neither baby nor Mommy had any shots or IVs. Woo hoo!
My OB also was very anti-episiotomy and had only done two his entire medical career. Not that the ER delivery doc really saw my birth plan anyway… 
Next time I’m adding a line that I want to be on my side to deliver the placenta, not on my back with feet in stirrups waiting for the doctor to arrive to stitch me up – that was the most painful part of the entire experience!
Newborn Procedures
I think I actually had a better experience with Leah, and maybe Paul (my
husband could tell you more; I’m a little foggy on the details) than with John as far as getting baby on my belly/chest immediately and keeping him there. I felt like John was taken from me too quickly and too often, partly because of that darn on-my-back and in pain pose waiting for the placenta to come out. I’m pretty sure I had Paul with me during that time the first go ’round.
I wasn’t very “green” in my personal care…at all…until I started blogging when Leah was about 9 months old, so the first two Kimball kids just used Johnson & Johnson at the hospital and beyond.
I pulled an elitist move and brought my own soap this time. I try not to be stuck up about things, but I might as well keep the chemicals off my one-hour-old child, you know? I didn’t ask the hospital if they used bleach on the towels and newborn blankets, though. You can’t control everything.
[Use code KATIEKIMBALL for 10% off regularly priced US orders (does not include travel kits or bundles)]
PKU Testing
When I posted our birth plan on Life Your Way and printed it for the hospital bag, I basically used the same one as we did in 2005 and 2008 with very few tweaks. I was sure surprised to learn that we hadn’t even followed it in 2005 with my first son!
A few readers wondered why I stated that we postpone the routine PKU until the first pediatrician’s appointment, and I emailed my pediatrician (told you she’s awesome). She said that we didn’t postpone until the 2-week appointment with either of my other kids. Oh. Don’t you love how much I don’t even know?
The PKU is just a blood draw, not an injection, and there’s really no disadvantage other than pain. Sleepy newborns don’t seem to notice it, so we had no problem going with the flow on that one.
Vitamin K Shot
We had another surprise with this item on the birth plan, which we must not have followed in 2005 with boy number one. Since he was circumcised, we must have had the Vitamin K shot for him, because the doctors at the hospital would not circumcise John without the Vitamin K shot.
I had done a little background research, so I had an answer ready: “We’d like an oral dose of Vitamin K if you have it.”
Apparently the oral dose is little researched and a bit of a shot in the dark as far as dosage quantity. The pediatrician on call had had a horrible experience circumcising an infant with an oral dose of Vitamin K; the child bled for two hours. He refused to circumcise with the oral dose.
There we were in the hospital doing online research about the shot to “redo” our decision on that one, since we couldn’t remember all the reasoning behind declining. When we found out that although there aren’t many risks to the shot itself, babies are producing plenty of Vitamin K by eight days old and wouldn’t need the shot at all by then, we decided to forego it.
This unknowingly started a snowballing of events leading to more research, hours on the phone, and a radical change in our plan for Jonathan.
We were even going to get him the Vitamin K shot at his 2-week appointment at the recommendation of our pediatrician, who said that K levels aren’t quite up to snuff until 6 months of age. More phone calls, more research, and finally we decided it just wasn’t worth it.
Here are some of the sources on Vitamin K and infants, if you’re curious:
- Vitamin K Deficiency Bleeding
- Vitamin K shot vs. oral at various doses
- Vitamin K: What, why and when?
- The relation of Vitamin K to jaundice
Circumcision
Our plan for Jonathan, obviously, was to have him circumcised in the hospital. When we couldn’t because of the K shot, we decided we’d just bring him back to the hospital after 8 days to get it done.
Easier said than accomplished.
First, I couldn’t make an appointment at the hospital as a lay person.
Second, they charge $3800 for a circumcision. Wowsers!
We finally had the appointment scheduled and the $437 circumcision at a urologist’s office.
Then we were doing research and praying for discernment AGAIN.
It all started (or ended) with the intense conversation on this post about that darn sugar water pain relief thingy my newborn was nearly given in the hospital. (They were going to give him Sweet-Ease for the circumcision, by the way, but said I could bring a bottle of expressed breastmilk when I said I didn’t like artificial nipples.)
A friend asked a candid but honest question about why we were even circumcising Jonathan, to which I replied:
1. I knew I didn’t want to, but DH did because of locker room emotional pain. I didn’t have the energy to look into it. So we were going to.
2. We didn’t get the Vit K shot so he couldn’t get circ’d in the hospital. We started to reconsider, esp. with the stat that 25% of John’s generation will be uncircumcised.
3. A close friend who was uncirc’d had a horrible infection and had to get surgery as an adult. We went back to scheduling the appt. b/c of his advice that he wd circ his sons if he ever has any.
4. Hospital quoted $3800 for circ. We wondered again…
5. Stats say that infections and cancer are higher in uncirc boys. Sooo…b/t that and no. 1 and no. 3, the appt has been scheduled (for <$500 – pays to shop around).
That’s the beginning and the end of that issue…but I’m still very very nervous about how John will do with the surgery and hope he doesn’t stop being an angel baby!
And then the advice began…
from ‘Becca:
Here is a great article about how to address men’s “locker room” concerns.
I hope you can win this argument. To me, it seems bizarre to let your son have major surgery on a very sensitive body part for no good reason, while freaking out about his ingesting a few drops of sugar water.
from Karen:
My first one was circ’d because dad was. 2nd son was circ’d becuz brother was. 3rd son, i finally ‘woke up’, so we refer to him as our ‘experiment’.
I, too, bought in to the argument that ’so many’ men have trouble if they are not circ’d or that uncirc’d are more prone to cancer.
Then I looked at how the Good Lord made us. Yes, in the old testament, the Jews were to be circ’d. But Paul welcomed those uncirc’d in to the faith w/o a requirement to be circ’d. That was good enough for me.
That being said, my #2 DS was circ’d at the doctor’s office, with me holding him at day 8, like in the Bible. It was a terrible day, but he ‘did fine’…
Another mommy… <3
from Mareth, of the original question:
)The Result?
We reopened the issue, did a little more research, and came to the conclusion that we simply cannot find a compelling reason to go forth with the circumcision. We cancelled the appointment and hope that we did well for our little guy!
I share this story (saga? ordeal? mess?) because I want you to know that you’re not alone when you feel like not only are there a million billion decisions, medical and otherwise, to make for your child, but that almost all of them are complicated and messy.
The world is not black and white, but you’ve got an ally in confusion, indecision and general human-ness here at Kitchen Stewardship®.
Don’t ever feel like you have to do something a certain way just because you recycle or make homemade deodorant or try not to take a Tylenol for a headache if you can help it. You are not a label. Every decision is unique, just as every family is unique.
We fell out on a pretty conservative, counter-cultural side, but it wasn’t without some pain and consternation. The decisions weren’t as easy as typing fingers may make them sound when I post things like my birth plan or our birth story.
Disclosure: I am an affiliate of Earth Mama Organics and will receive a commission if you buy the soap…I’ll be reviewing it in full next week, so you’ll hear my honest opinion then. See my full disclosure statement here.
This is so needed! I love the phrase “know better, do better.” Especially when it comes to kids. Being a parent is SO hard and nothing but being one can help you prepare.
Having just had #5 in January, my birth plan and parenting style has evolved A LOT!
From being frightened of the pain, and relying on doctors “knowing what was best” to contemplating and researching which doctors might do a vaginal breech birth if needed (Midwives aren’t allowed to in my state), circing my first 2 sons to leaving my 3rd. It’s been a journey and definitely crazy ride. We have done the vitamin K shot only because of a family clotting disorder that runs in my husband’s family. We’ve felt that was the safest thing for each of our babies. But I think that that is completely up to each individual and their family. We as mothers are given the divine call and ability to care for our children and I fully believe that God will guide us each in making the best choice for each child even if they are different choices.
Well said Sarah, thanks for sharing a bit of your journey!
Katie, thank you so much for putting your journey out there for us all to read. It can’t be easy to throw this out when you know that you are opening yourself up to all sorts of “advice” and criticism. As always, you have handled yourself with a gentleness and graciousness that inspires me!
This is a particularly difficult topic for me. I would naturally come down against circumcision, but the question is complicated by the fact that I am a Jew!
On the “no” side, I keep coming back to the fact that ancient circumcision was not a full removal of the foreskin. One commenter remarked that she had never seen any evidence for this idea. However, ancient medical “technology” did not allow for removal of the entire foreskin. The foreskin is attached at birth and does not retract until toddlerhood. Without the modern retractor/shield apparatus that they use to cut the foreskin off, they would have resorted to ripping it off – akin to tearing off your fingernails – or risked cutting the head of the penis in the operation. From what I have researched, it seems most likely that they simply trimmed the very tip of the foreskin. Since that option is not available, I can’t see myself forcing my son to have his entire foreskin removed.
On the other hand, for those who argue that circumcision was completed with the advent of the New Testament, I refer to Genesis 17:13 – “…My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.” However, this covenant was made with the Jews and the Jews only. Modern day believers need to be careful when they read about covenants and promises in the Old Testament. Some spiritual promises are inherited by gentiles when they receive Jesus and are grafted in, but some were made specifically to the Jewish people and remain for them only.
Another thought – when quoting the apostle Paul’s statements about circumcision in the New Testament, one must understand that the question he was addressing was NOT whether Jewish believers in Jesus should be circumcised, nor even only whether or not Gentiles should be circumcised. Paul was addressing a deeper question of whether or not Gentiles had to convert to Judaism to receive Jesus. In Acts 15, we read that “Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: ‘Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.’” Essentially, there were Jewish believers in Jesus teaching gentiles that they had to become Jews (and live by the Jewish laws) before they could become believers. Circumcision was the first step in that conversion, and it was a quintessential part of Judaism – not like it is today in America where it became part of the social landscape for so long. That idea – that gentiles had to convert to Judaism and keep the Law – is what Paul so passionately and eloquently refutes. For gentiles, it certainly removes the obligation to circumcise your child, but that isn’t pertinent to me as a Jew.
Anyway, I’m rambling! I have to admit that after more than 7 years of struggling with this question, I still don’t have an answer. I appreciate you sharing your journey, because it can be a complicated and difficult question, especially when one’s faith enters the equation. Thankfully, we have three daughters, so while I wrestled with the question each pregnancy, we haven’t had to make a final decision.
Sarah,
I’m so glad you commented! This really adds to the post and gives great food for thought. You ramble in good company!
🙂 Katie
Dear Sarah, I had a friend whose husband wanted their son to be circumcised and they had it done by a rabbi in their home I think 8 days after birth. They are not Jewish. I imagine it was more like the ritual circumcision you are talking about and less like the modern surgery. This was 26 years ago in Michigan.
It’s interesting to see the evolution of your thinking. All of your children are blessed to have such thoughtful, caring parents as the two of you! As for not circ’ing, I said to R one day as I was wiping up son #1, “This is a lot to clean around.” To which he replied, “That’s why I wanted to circumcise him.” Imagine his shock when I told him I was referring to the entire penis/testicle area! Oh, you wouldn’t cut the whole thing off just to make cleaning easier? 🙂 Both of our boys are fine, and the care has not been a big deal.
Tee hee, thanks! Hope you are well! 🙂 Katie
Katie–I just have to say thank you for posting this. It was a link you posted from one of your commenters that really opened my eyes about circumcision and inspired my own post about it. (http://www.laurelofleaves.com/2011/10/modern-circumcision-is-not-necessary-natural-or-biblical/)
Thanks again!
Thanks, Lori – great post!
Just wondering if you had any posts on the hep-lock – what it is and why? Thanks!
Kim,
That’s just an IV port that can be “locked” when there’s no IV in there, but then the IV can be put in quickly. Does that make any sense? It’s just a way that I could move around when not on IV. 🙂 Katie
my homebirth class has a urologist present (husband of mama) and when circumcision came up he said he just had to comment. i was expecting him to cite statistal “evidence” supporting circ, so i was a bit surprised when he came out railing AGAINST circumcision. at first he stated how it is really rare for their to be problems from intact foreskin, and they usually occur in elderly men in nursing homes, but them he just got a little fired up and basically said it was a brutal practice, a money making enterprise, and he would NEVER citc his own son nor would he recommend it on a baby. we were already against it but taking a little heat from in-laws as my FIL had to be circ’d as an adult and had strong opinions. i was just very impressed that a UROLOGIST would be so against this practice routinely done on babies.
i agree that safe sex or abstinence goes a lot farther to prevent STD’s. duh. and i would hate to see if someone thought female circumcision AKA GENITAL MUTILATION was okay because some statistics could be represented to support it.
i am glad we left our little boy the way God made him. and not to offend anybody but my praying for discernment does not involve consulting a fragment of a translated from a translated religious text to make or break my decision. God gave me free will and intelligence and I have full faith in my abilities with some prayer and connection to my Creator to guide me through 🙂 not to say that supports one view or another, but I could not make such an important decision without my own conscience. and my conscience says no to circumcision
I’m an American living abroad in Europe (Germany). I had a home birth with a German midwife a month ago. We did not circ and did not use the vit k shot. Also, I was group strep B and did not use antibiotics. Thought you’d enjoy some cultural difference information:
In Germany, infants born in the hospital do not receive Vit. K shots. They get two doses or oral drops. No issues with that, obviously, or they would have switched to the shot.
Germans do not circ. Americans have to get it done at the American clinic within 2-3 weeks after birth or not at all. When I spoke to my European friends about circ, they were appalled that we believe what we are told. Lower instances of HIV/STD? Teach your child to use a condom (IF that research is even true). Infections and/or cancer? – Not a problem among their men. Dirty? – Easier to clean than a vagina. I’ve lived in Portugal and Germany and also have British friends. Their take on Circ is so entirely different than ours that, for me, it’s clear to see that it’s not only a cosmetic surgery, but a money-making one at that. Even my circ’d husband now believes it’s almost entirely cosmetic and has gotten over the whole “locker room” and “must look like daddy” debate. He has no recollection of what his father’s penis looks like – doesn’t even know or care to ask if he’s circ’d or not. And, no one in school showered in the locker rooms or dared to even looked at each other’s “junk” – as my husband likes to call it.
I was also group strep b. My midwife has been practicing 23-years. As a general rule, her patients do not treat. She has a great peds doc many of her patients see and he’s supportive of that and has information on why it’s not really necessary to treat, that he gives concerned parents. My son was born encased in his sac – so, any exposure he got was after the sac was broken and he was placed in my arms in the water he was born into – and the virus would have been diluted. He’s fine. And, I’ve learned, many German OB’s don’t even test for it. There’s a natural birthing hospital (not birthing clinic – as they do c-section there when necessary) that doesn’t test or treat unless water has been broken for a very extended period time and/or a few other rare risk factors. Again, they have not had serious issues.
Germans (home birth and hospital) do not cut the cord right away. It’s standard procedure to leave it until it stops pulsating. Not something you even have to put in your plan. My cord pulsated for close to a half hour before it stopped and my midwife cut it.
So, different countries do different things and I hate to see Americans so deeply entrenched in what goes on in their country instead of researching what other countries do and what their outcomes are. It’s fascinating. It’s been quite a journey for me. I’ve loved it!!
Your story made me cry! Good for you for not circing despite the fact that your first son is! You’re amazing!!
Wow, Natalie, That stuff totally fascinates me. I love hearing about differences in cultures,and it does strengthen my resolve to do the research and not be afraid to say “no thanks.” I wish I would have learned more about the cord thing before this baby…but then again, having him in the E.r. probably would have reduced my chances of having what I wanted in that topic, anyway. 😉 Katie
We had a lot of the same issues as you did with the vitamin k/circ dilema. We put it off until he was 2. And while i struggled with to circ or not to circ my husband was always for it, and we did our research on it.
I felt really horrible about the pain he was in afterward, but it didn’t last long and he’s fine.
I’ve also heard a few people say that circ of the bible was not the same as today, but i have found no evidence to support that.
My only regret is that we couldn’t find anyone to do the circ without the k after his 8th day.
Did mean to mention that vit K levels peak at 8 days after birth, which is why Jewish babies were circumcised on the 8th day! Isn’t that cool?
Enjoyed this article immensely! After giving birth to ten babies, my birth plan evolved a bit too!!! 🙂
My favorite births were the two at home . . . but I had some good experiences in the hospital with a midwife too.
My six sons are not circumcised either. I researched and agonized over it 21 years ago with the birth of my first son, and decided against it. So far, no problems of any kind.
We did have a problem with one son who did not receive vit. K shot (although I believe they are basically unnecessary) and was extremely jaundiced. Apparently, the high bilirubin levels affected the vit. K levels and visa versa. Anyway, he ended up in the hospital with bleeding and bruising under his home bililights blanket. it was quite a scare . . . but a shot of vitamin K cured his bleeding problems and we were relived to go home 24 hours later!
I applaud you for researching and thinking through each of these difficult decisions!
I was kind of hoping you had circumcised and had some natural ways of treating it for that first little bit. It is definitely a sensitive subject and I respect others decisions.
Thanks for the updates and info on everything else. I am going back and forth on the Vitamin K- I actually found out that I am highly allergic to vitamin K when pregnant and it makes me wonder what effect that has on baby. I also have this fear in my head that what if I don’t get it and the baby has internal bleeding and I could have prevented that? So many decisions.
Mary Kathryn,
I hear you, for sure. We were all over the place on Vit K.
For the circumcision, I was planning to use either coconut oil or lanolin instead of the petroleum jelly to help it heal.
–Katie
i gave birth about a week and a half ago, and we almost postponed the pku, because i remembered seeing that on your birth plan. most birth/hospital interventions i had researched well but not this one (since then i have learned, like you mentioned in this blog, there are few side effects to the PKU besides pain).
my midwife convinced us to get the test and i am SO glad that we did. turns out our daughter has hypothyroidism (one of the 30 or so things they test for besides PKU with that single test), which can have major effects on infants. fortunately, she was on medicine within a few days of being born, and so her prognosis is good, but the longer the delay of diagnosis the worse the prognosis.
long story short, as much as i fear/distrust medical procedures in general, i am so, so glad that we got the PKU done in hospital, it may have saved our daughter from major health problems.
Sarah,
Yowza, I’m so glad you didn’t just listen to me and my ramblings! I’m heading over to Green Your Way to delete that from my birth plan now…thanks for the reminder! 🙂 Katie
PS – super glad your daughter is doing well – congratulations!
The best parents are those without children! 🙂
I appreciate your honesty Katie, and your willingness to share with so many people who will certainly have their own, and sometimes opposite, opinion.
Circing is uncommon in Europe, and the men seem to be doing just fine. The first time DH saw circd men was in the States.
I’m glad you decided to keep your son intact; I was a little worried but figured you’d already made up your mind and wouldn’t want a ton of criticism. It was a big issue for my husband and me — he was strongly pro-circ, and I was strongly against it — but in the end we left our son intact. He’s never had the slightest problem, and I have no regrets at all.
As far as STD’s go, there are studies which go both ways. Some suggest circumcision offers some protection, and some seem to say it does more harm than good. It’s interesting that the US, where it is so common, has much higher rates of STD’s than Europe has, despite Europeans usually being intact. Obviously that’s not a definitive proof, but it wasn’t a main reason for our decision, either. We eventually just decided that, if there was a problem or need for circumcision, it could easily be done later, and at a time when he doesn’t have to keep his incision in a dirty diaper!
Katie, I love reading your blog! Out of curiosity I read your birth plan, I gave birth to all of my babies in the UK where things are definitely different! I have a question about the use of antibiotics. I see it is in your birth plan and your blog. Are antibiotics a part of standard practice when giving birth? If so, what for?
Thanks!
You have an antibiotic if the mother tests positive for having Group Strep B virus.
Nadine,
Mary Kathryn already answered – about 20% of women (maybe more?) are Group B Strep positive, and pregnant mamas have to be tested for it at about 36 weeks. It can cause death if passed to the baby in the birth canal, but the chances are low.
That doesn’t happen in the UK, eh?
🙂 Katie
wow – fascinating! I had no ideia that most american men were circumcized and that it is “an issue” if they are not. here most men are not, unless they needed to be at an older age.
hello katie,
i first want to say that i respect your decision to think about this before doing it and your courage to do something that feels like it’s going against the grain. but i do want to offer another view and remind you that human logic and reason often fall short which is why we need to turn to our Creator.
i’ve got three circumcised sons. they were born with foreskins, umbilical cords and placentas attached. all were removed. just because God made something one way doesn’t mean He decrees it has to stay that way. after all we do cut our hair and nails.
we are muslim and i praise and thank God for giving us guidance on this and so many other issues through the example of our Prophet. it is our practice to wait until the seventh day after birth to circumcise. now i know that only then can newborns synthesize vitamin k to cause blood clotting. all praise and thanks are due to God.
Oh, wow! I never would’ve imagined that the one person I agree with the most regarding something that relates to religion would be someone of an entirely different religion than me. Lady, you’ve got some smarts.
To the Christian readers here, I have to say I disagree. The Bible verses in the New Testament that mention circumcision say it is uneccessary to circumcise for SPIRITUAL reasons, not health reasons. I believe the health reasons may still be valid. I believe God made those laws regarding circumcision for our health, and the Old Testament was not made irrelevant when Jesus died on the cross.
Thank you for this perspective! It was definitely a tough call, and one that included plenty of prayer.
I just wanted to say respectfully to @A Muslim Reader, that if the placenta and umbilical cord are left on the baby after birth (Lotus birth) they will dry up and fall off, the foreskin of the penis does not.
We have not circumcised either of our sons. My husband was very against it, because of some articles he read. In trying to prove why we SHOULD circumcise I found I completely agreed with him.
First off, I fully believe it is the parent’s right to choose whether to circumcise or not … however, studies have proved that male circumcision can prevent the acquisition of HIV by 60% and HPV by 35%.
The World Health Organization recognizes circumcision as an HIV prevention tool. I know HIV may not be a concern where we may live in the United States, but there are proven factual benefits to male circumcision.
Here is an article with more facts: http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/306/13/1479.full
I’ve never commented on this blog, however, I do love reading it for the cooking inspiration (I hate to cook). I work in the public health field, and it was hard for me to read this and NOT comment.
Again, I believe you have the right to choose … but always get the facts from all sides of the equation.
Claire,
Thank you for adding some balance! I’m pretty sure we saw those stats, but with STDs, I’m pretty much of the opinion that if a person – even my own child – wants to be promiscuous, they can live with the consequences of their sin. I know that may seem harsh…but for now, until life changes my mind, it’s where I’m at.
🙂 Katie
That’s funny; I posted a comment responding to this yesterday, but it’s not here….
My response to these research findings is similar to the way I would respond if research showed that people who have had laser eye surgery are less likely to get into car accidents than people who wear glasses or contacts. I don’t want to be in a car accident, but I minimize my risk by driving carefully and using other modes of transportation as much as I can. I wouldn’t have laser eye surgery because it has other risks which, in my evaluation of my personal values and worries, outweigh the benefit of *reduced risk* of car accident. If it was 100% safety from car accidents, that would be different.
Similarly, I plan to teach my son to choose partners carefully, take precautions against STDs, and be tested regularly so that if he does get an STD he will not spread it. I believe all of these have a stronger protective effect than circumcision, with no negative effects, and anyway all of them would be necessary even if he were circumcised. (That’s assuming he does not choose to be celibate or to abstain until monogamous marriage to a virgin. It will be fine with us if he chooses one of those, but in our family we don’t believe those are the only acceptable options.)
Becca,
Glad you said something; your comment was hung up in spam along with another from someone else. I don’t go through there b/c I get over 1K a week! Got it and approved it now. 🙂 Katie
Oh, gee, I had made two attempts to post it, and you put up both of them! I feel a little silly. But it’s better than losing the whole thing. Thanks for delving into that huge spam pile to find them!
Here are some handy tables comparing various countries’ rates of
circumcision
cervical cancer
HIV
herpes.
(I found those in minutes via Google; I am not claiming they’re the best data one can get!)
As a research professional (although I work in social science, not health care), I know it’s very important to consider possible lurking variables–the other factors that affect an outcome. Most of this research was done in Africa, where many things are very different than in the United States. Some things that spring to my mind are access to clean water for personal hygiene, access to medical treatment (none of these STDs is curable, but medication can reduce HIV and herpes viral shedding so that a man is less likely to transmit it, and there is a vaccine that can prevent HPV infection), education about how to avoid STDs, access to condoms, and prevalence of these STDs in the general population.
Looking at those tables, I notice many interesting things. For example:
*HIV is twice as common in the U.S. as in Canada, where about half as many men are circumcised.
*HIV is six times as common in the U.S. as in Norway, Sweden, Poland, and Greece, countries where circumcision is very rare but access to clean water and condoms is similar and education and health care are the same or better.
*Cervical cancer rates are pretty similar between the U.S. and European countries with very low rates of circumcision: Greece and Switzerland have less cervical cancer than the U.S., and Iceland, Spain, and Italy have about the same rate as the U.S.
*All the countries with the highest HIV rates are in Africa. Among the 9 countries where >10% of people have HIV, anywhere between 0 and 56% of men are circumcised–that’s a huge variation. (Of course, a lot of those circumcisions may be recent ones done because of these research findings!)
*104.6% of men in the Gaza Strip are circumcised?!? What’s up with THAT?!? Is “Gaza Strip” a euphemism for some more drastic version of the surgery? Yowch!
So, even if it is true that circumcision reduces any man’s risk of STDs regardless of hygiene, I feel that the risk of my son being exposed to HIV is quite low as he lives in the U.S. It’s kind of like his not being vaccinated against smallpox: That’s a vaccine Americans born in the past 40 years have gotten only when traveling to countries where smallpox is more prevalent.
But if he were going to spend a year in Swaziland, I wouldn’t advise him to get circumcised to reduce his risk of getting HIV; I’d advise him to abstain from sex and any sort of blood-sharing! The risk even for a circumcised man is far too high.
As for HPV and herpes, which *are* common in the U.S., I believe that education, careful choice of partners, condom use, and good medical care are better ways to avoid these diseases than surgery.
Although it will be fine with me if my son chooses lifelong celibacy or abstinence until monogamous marriage to a virgin, I expect it’s more likely that he will have had multiple lovers by the time he’s 20, as both his parents did. I expect that he will choose those lovers carefully, as both his parents did. I expect that he will be extremely careful of his own and his partners’ safety, as both his parents always have been. I believe that the odds are good that he will never contract any STD, as neither of his parents ever have–and we highly doubt that the popularity of circumcision in our generation is the reason for that.
I’m not arguing with your overall post – I think you made some good points – but I did want to clarify a couple different points:
1) The effectiveness Gardasil (the HPV vaccine) is highly debatable, especially as it has only been on the market for a couple years. It only protects against a few strains of HPV. Because it is new in the population, we are still learning how long it remains effective – current estimates are only 5 years, which would leave a vaccinated child vulnerable right at the cusp of their presumed sexually active years. It also seems to have a high rate of adverse reactions, and has not been tested on the age group that is currently being targeted – 9-12 year olds. Even if parents choose to give this vaccine to their child, it would be unwise at this point to count on it to prevent HPV, especially in the absence of other protective measures.
2) The “Gaza Strip” is not a radical form of circumcision, but rather a geographical area that is claimed by both Israel and Palestine. I would expect high rates of circumcision, based on the fact that it is mostly occupied by Jews and Muslims, but obviously there is a typo, since you can never have more than 100% of anything!
As a research professional (although I work in social science, not health care), I know it’s very important to consider possible lurking variables–the other factors that affect an outcome. Most of the research showing a positive effect of circumcision on STD transmission was done in Africa, where many things are very different than in the United States. Some things that spring to my mind are access to clean water for personal hygiene, access to medical treatment (none of these STDs is curable, but medication can reduce HIV or herpes viral shedding so that a man is less likely to transmit it, and there is a vaccine that can prevent HPV infection), education about how to avoid STDs, access to condoms, and prevalence of these STDs in the general population.
Here are some handy tables comparing various countries’ rates of
circumcision
cervical cancer
HIV
and herpes.
(I found those in a few minutes via Google; I am not claiming they’re the best data one can get!)
Looking at those tables, I notice many interesting things. For example:
*HIV is twice as common in the U.S. as in Canada, where about half as many men are circumcised.
*HIV is six times as common in the U.S. as in Norway, Sweden, Poland, and Greece, countries where circumcision is very rare but access to clean water and condoms is similar and education and health care are the same or better.
*Cervical cancer rates are pretty similar between the U.S. and European countries with very low rates of circumcision.
*All the countries with the highest HIV rates are in Africa. Among the 9 countries where more than 10% of people have HIV, anywhere between 0 and 56% of men are circumcised–that’s a huge variation. (Of course, a lot of those circumcisions may be recent ones done because of these research findings!)
*104.6% of men in the Gaza Strip are circumcised?!? What’s up with THAT?!? Is “Gaza Strip” a euphemism for some more drastic version of the surgery? Yowch!
The risk of being exposed to HIV in the U.S. is pretty low. If my son were going to spend a year in Swaziland, I wouldn’t advise him to get circumcised to reduce his risk of getting HIV; I’d advise him to abstain from sex and any sort of blood-sharing! The risk even for a circumcised man is far too high.
As for HPV and herpes, which *are* common in the U.S., I believe that education, careful choice of partners, condom use, and good medical care are better ways to avoid these diseases than surgery.
Although it will be fine with me if my son chooses lifelong celibacy or chooses abstinence until monogamous marriage to a virgin, I expect it’s more likely that he will have had multiple lovers by the time he’s 20, as both his parents did. I expect that he will choose those lovers carefully, as both his parents did. I expect that he will be extremely careful of his own and his partners’ safety, as both his parents always have been. I believe that the odds are good that he will never contract any STD, as neither of his parents ever have–and we highly doubt that the popularity of circumcision in our generation is the reason we didn’t. Many other factors have a larger effect.
Hi Katie, thanks so much for sharing your experiences here. I’m 24 weeks pregnant with my first child (gender unknown!), and it’s always great to hear anecdotes from a natural-minded mama. Do you (or anyone else) have any resources I can look at that will help me be better informed as to what I can expect with a hospital birth? Right now it looks like I will be having the baby in South Korea (my husband will be working there), and even though it probably won’t be exactly the same as US standards I’d really like to have a good understanding of the A-Z process – what I will be offered, everything they might want to give the baby, etc. I did read your “10 Childbirth Norms” post which was really helpful, but I still feel like I’m catching snippets of the big picture and I’d really like to feel comfortable and informed. 🙂 Thanks!
Elise,
Procedures vary a lot, but my birth plan will give you an idea of at least what I expected to encounter: http://green.yourway.net/our-bradley-method-birth-plan
Congratulations and God bless your birth! 🙂 Katie
The discussion boards at mothering.com have tons of info about birth procedures, and you probably can find someone there who has experience in South Korea!
Your best best is to find some other South Korean mamas and ask lots of questions. I’ve given birth both in Canada and in Slovakia…the difference was HUGE. If you don’t speak Korean, you could try to have someone with you who does and who knows your wishes. Also, you can visit the hospital beforehand and talk to the nurses/doctors and ask them to walk you through the area, and ask lots of questions. Starting at eight months it is required to go to the hospital for check ups (as opposed to your own ob) where I live and I spoke to one doctor we knew. She wasn’t able to be at the birth, but she called the doctor on duty when I went into labour and warned her that the Canadian with the strange requests was coming. good luck!
As far as information about the labor/birth process itself (which doesn’t change no matter where mama is standing!), I would strongly recommend anything by Dr. Bradley and/or a series of Bradley birth classes, if they are available in your area. I have taken a couple different classes and read a LOT of books, and I think Bradley offers the best medical information about the process of labor.
Of course, everyone’s labor experiences are different. I thought I knew what a textbook labor would look/feel like, but my first birth was very fast and blew through some of the physical and emotional signposts of the stages of labor. However, there was a lot of valuable information that did apply for both me and my husband. Even if you forgo the husband-coached aspect (we did), the classes are an excellent, comprehensive look at how our bodies work through the labor process. I wish every first-time mom would take a course. If Bradley birth classes are not offered where you are, you can buy his books online. I think the one I read was “Husband-Coached Childbirth.”
Best of luck in your upcoming birth!
We did not circ. our son either. I did a lot of research on the subject while I was pregnant and my husband agreed with me that it was better to not have it done. I haven’t regretted it! 🙂
I am proud of you to not circ your son. My aunt was an Intactivist after her oldest son was circ’ed. She felt that it was barbaric and her next two sons are intact. They are in their 30’s now so what she did was ground breaking. Fast forward, she gets her nursing degree and works OB, she cringes and hates each circ she has to help with and cries along with the babies for the injustice that has been served them. We have not circ’ed our son and hope that he will thank us when he is old enough to understand. (And I teach Bradley & doula so I have been super digging your birth related posts!)
See now, when you’re the teeny tiny fraction of a chance that something might go wrong, you look at blog posts like this and it makes you a little sick. Sure the odds are low, but I don’t understand why people gamble when its their children’s lives at stake. Weigh the possibilities — my newborn’s remote chance of contracting Meningitis far outweighs whatever the risks of antibiotics are. ESPECIALLY if I’m going to breastfeed anyway.
When you are the 2 out of a million mother and baby, when your baby nearly dies before anyone picks up on it in the hospital, when having a home birth 100% would have resulted in a sudden unexpected death — yeah you don’t play the odds.
Just remember someone warned you. God bless. Modern medicine is a blessing — use it.
Jeni,
I assume you are a mother whose child was very ill or worse, and I feel awfully for you. You’re absolutely right – modern medicine can be a great blessing when it’s time to call on it. I’m so sorry it let you down…
God bless you,
Katie
Wow! what a saga! Thank you for sharing it with us!
I’ve been reading your blog for a while but never commented. My stomach was in knots reading this post, and I’m so relieved that you chose not to circ. With all the research you’ve done to do all things more naturally, I would have been shocked if you had circumcised him.
I’ve got 3 intact boys and never had any problems whatsoever and I am still so relieved that we left them the way God intended. (and when you start learning about the function of a foreskin, I find it shocking that as a society we’re so willing to cut it off– it actually serves a purpose! Did you know that the US leads in the sale of artificial lubricants? That’s because most men are circ’d and don’t have the natural lubrication their foreskin would have provided) I did have a pediatrician try to tell me my oldest “needed” to be circ’d because his foreskin was not yet retractable. Thankfully, I’d done my research and knew better. But I’ve found that a lot of doctors don’t actually know that much about the care of an INTACT penis. So beware.
The following two links are invaluable should you ever encounter a doctor that tries to tell you that you need to be retracting your infant’s foreskin.
http://www.drmomma.org/2010/01/phony-phimosis-diagnosis.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/
Thank you Danielle!
There is also a lot of good information about caring for an intact baby/child on the mothering.com site (although you should be prepared to wade through some PASSIONATE propaganda).
Katie, this is a great post! Clear, thoughtful and honest. Your closing thoughts are SO important – there is evolution is everything, even our thinking, and statements/blog comments etc about ‘we did this’ or ‘this is right/wrong’ don’t bely the *process* that should be involved in coming to those conclusions. Once we acknowledge the process, we can hardly judge others harshly for coming to other conclusions – we know how complicated the path was.
I am so glad you made the decision not to circumcise your son. I was having a hard time understanding how someone with such a passion for real food & natural living would want to go through with such an unneccessary procedure.
I am positive my intact son (& his future wife) will thank us for making this decision in years to come.
Katie, I am from the UK where circ is not standard practice except among the Jewish and Muslim communities We moved to the US 2 years ago and none of my 3 uncirc sons, aged 11, 12 and 14 have had any locker room issues so I really dont think it is something to worry about. On a different note, it would be interesting to see if there is less of an incidence of cancer (is it cancer of the cervix?) in the US than the UK. My understanding that it was instituted by God in biblical times when the Children of Israel were in the desert and it was necessary for hygiene purposes. Also, we have 2 friends whose sons have had to be circ’d at an older age due to health issues and both came through it very smoothly!! I hope you continue you to be happy with your decision!
Thank you for sharing this. It is helpful to hear how a like-minded person came to this decision. I appreciate your honesty & openness.
Oh, Katie! I’m so glad to hear that you came to a decision you’re comfortable with… and that it means your precious new baby will not have to undergo unnecessary surgery.
I didn’t speak up and give you unsolicited advice when I first read that a circ was planned b/c I figured you’d get LOTS of advice! 🙂
I have a circ’d husband, circ’d first son, and intact second son. During my first pregnancy, I spent so much time learning about real food nutrition, natural birth, breastfeeding, and baby wearing, that circumcision just seemed an overwhelming topic to add to my research…
The thing that really convinced me was the evidence that sex is better for the man and the woman in intact men. Ok, a little graphic, but why would I want to take that away from my son? It’s just not my decision…
And like you, I always thought that if I ever circ’d another boy, I’d do it on day 8 and not have Vit K shot. But then when we had another boy, we made a completely different decision.
And, just in case you’re wondering… Our older son, 5, has not yet noticed anything different about his baby brother, 13mo now. I don’t see it being an issue in the future.
Praise God that He guided you through your tough decision! <3
I just love your openness. I too circumcised my first and worry occasionally about what I’d do if I had another son. I pray that it will be very clear what the right choice is for us. Thanks for letting us be privy to your reasoning. It always helps to know you’re not alone 🙂
We approached it this way sort of when I found I was expecting my first boy. We were open-minded and did a lot of reading. We ultimately came down strongly on the “NO” side. I know men who have shared that it *is* a big deal that the decision was made for them. So we haven’t done either of our boys.
I have to admit I am happy to hear you chose not to this time. 🙂 I think uncirc is 50% or greater in some areas so I really doubt it will be an issue at all!
Ah, Katie. My DH and I know exactly what you and yours have been going through regarding circumcision. We fussed, prayed, and researched why we SHOULD circumcise our son, but could find now compelling reason. We took a considerable amount of heat from my family (who could give us no good reason why we really should) and decided that we would leave this decision to our son. Circumcision (along with animal sacrifice and the like) are no longer required of us…thank goodness!
Thank you so much for sharing your heart with us like you do. May God always bless you and your family!
We came to a similar decision on circumcision for our second boy. His older brother was circumcised, but by the time Peter came along, I wasn’t at all comfortable with the idea (his brother’s circ experience wasn’t perfect, either) due to the possible issues it can cause and the truly non-issues of having a foreskin. It seemed unnecessary and risky.
Hubby was on the fence, so we discussed delaying. Then Peter was born with a rare congenital skin condition (lamellar ichthyosis) that would require delaying if we did it at all. Hubby took this as a sign that he was not meant to be circumcised and so he wasn’t.
He’s 6, now. Not old enough for locker room troubles, but he knows he looks different from his brother and his Daddy. Doesn’t seem to bother him. He’s different in so many other ways, that that consideration seems kinda silly now. ;0)
Oh my goodness!!! I am SOOO happy you decided not to circ. I have fallen in love with your blog and advice and love that you make me feel okay not being “perfect” on home/child/health matters, but I was so sad to hear you were going to circ your son, especially being the natural-minded momma that you are. I’ve fallen in love with you all over again!!! :o) Your decision will help guide other mothers and I am so grateful that there will be more thought and purposeful intention in this area. Thank you, thank you, thank you! Seriously, THANK YOU!
And on a completely unrelated note…I love the picture of you sharing the apple with your son…what a cute moment captured on film! :o)
Sounds like you guys did the research, did your best, and made a wise decision! Not that I passionately stand on either side of the fence, but I love that you guys don’t just go with the flow, but you are intentional about decisions that affect the health of your children.
Love this post, your honesty and your decision. I don’t want my child to be the “weird” one in the locker room either but I really so no reason to circ. I also love that pic at the top of the post.
You’re right. It’s funny how I knew it all before I had children and now I don’t know anything!
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It’s so important to let your ideas evolve and adjust to the situation! I also had an episiotomy done by a practitioner with a very good record of avoiding them–but that one bit of skin just would NOT move, and if I had been giving birth unassisted I totally would’ve grabbed the scissors at that point. (I’m glad I was able to be numbed for that cut, though!!) I did not want an IV because I hate being unable to bend my wrist and having tape on my skin; I’m glad I didn’t have it during labor, but after the birth when they told me I’d lost too much blood and should have supplemental fluids, I gladly accepted it.
I’m so glad Jonathan was spared surgery! Now you have an extra $437 to spend on good food to make good milk for him. 🙂
Thanks for the links! I had a difficult time finding research on the vitamin k shot when I was pregnant so we ended up getting it for our daughter when she was born…
Thanks for your candidness on this touchy topic. I don’t have sons but this is a question that I’m sure my husband I will have to face if we do ever have a boy. I guess one of my main questions, that I’m sure you discussed, is continuity in your own family (John with his brother and dad). I guess it’s your own sort of social experiment and I’m curious as to how it will go in the future.
My son never found it odd that his doesn’t look like his dad’s because men and little boys look different in so many other ways! With a brother, it might be more noticeable–but I’d guess that the questions are more likely to come from the older brother than the younger one. My son doesn’t have siblings, but eventually he noticed that some boys at preschool looked different, so that’s when I explained. He just brought it up again the other day: “You know, I’m very lucky. Because a lot of boys had that operation.” I’m glad he feels he’s got the better deal. 🙂
My 9 year-old said the same thing when we explained why he looked “different” way back when. I really believe it’s all in your attitude and how you present it to him. His take on it was “I’m really glad you and Daddy didn’t make me have that operation!” We have 3 uncircumcised boys now and not one of them has had a problem. Just las night the subject came up again and my husband shared with my son that in the Philippines (where my hubs was born and raised) it was the belief that a boy was circumcised as a coming-of-age around 11 or 12. My son was extra glad that we didn’t subscribe to that belief!
meggan,
yes, we did talk about that, and decided (a) that really wasn’t the best reason for surgery and (b) do they really compare all that often anyway? LoL…social experiment…so like me! 😉 Katie
I am so happy you came to the decision that you did! I too feel that God designed mens bodies the right way from the beginning. I have read in a few places that biblical circumcision was nothing like the circumcision performed today, that it did not mean cutting the entire foreskin. I thought the figures were closer to 50% being uncircumcised today and in some regions even more, which makes me wonder if the locker room thing might start happening the other way around? I have two uncirced boys who have a circed father. It has been such a non issue for us as far as care is concerned, and almost all of the boys I know that are their age are also intact. Anyway I love your blog and your openness to discuss important health and nutrition issues. Thanks for all you do!
Katie, that is WONDERFUL. As others said, God made us this way! My midwife said it was close to 50% uncirc in Chicago, so we felt like it wouldn’t be a big deal. This was when we didn’t know the gender of our child, so we had to have a plan. She turned out to be a girl so the point was moot but we did a lot of research/discernment as well.
Thank you for your openness to share your process and thoughts on your birth plan. As I’ve learned with my six month old, you never know how things will turn out and it is certainly not for me to judge how others make parenting decisions. My plans haven’t always worked out the way I expected, but I believe God has used those moments to teach me about not having a plan but following HIS will.
God bless.
I was hoping deep down that you’d end up here. 🙂